dane.c ([info]missmimesis) wrote,
@ 2009-05-28 23:06:00
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would you like to take a survey about gays and fashion?
If so, you are in luck!!

----

age:
location:
occupation:

do you identify as:
male / female / other
gay / straight / bi / other

do you think of yourself as someone who:
a. is totally neutral about fashion
b. doesn't know/care about fashion, but feels generally positive about it
c. doesn't know/care much about fashion, but feels generally negative about it
d. knows a lot about fashion and loves it, because _____________________
e. knows a lot about fashion and hates it, because _____________________
f. other ______________

I. What is your reaction to this statement: "Most male fashion designers are gay."
a. yes, that's true
b. no, that's a stereotype
c. well...that's a stereotype, but also probably true
d. what? why would you say that?
e. other ______________


-Why do you think that this is true?

and/or

-Why do you think that other people would believe that this is true?


II. What is your reaction to this statement: "Many major fashion designers of the last hundred years have been gay men."

a. that's definitely true, and I can name some of them: ___________________
b. that's definitely true, but I can't name any
c. that's probably true, but I'm not sure
d. I have no idea if that's true or false
e. that's probably false, but I'm not sure
f. that's definitely false
g. other ___________________


Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the prominence (past or present) of gay men in fashion design?

and/or

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the perception that gay men are (or have been) prominent in fashion design?




Do you know who this man is?
Is he gay?

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[info]monkey1976
2009-05-29 03:35 am UTC (link)
age: 33
location: ny, ny
occupation: copywriter/advertising

do you identify as:
male / female / other female
gay / straight / bi / other straight(ish)

do you think of yourself as someone who:
a. is totally neutral about fashion
b. doesn't know/care about fashion, but feels generally positive about it (this one)
c. doesn't know/care much about fashion, but feels generally negative about it
d. knows a lot about fashion and loves it, because _____________________
e. knows a lot about fashion and hates it, because _____________________
f. other ______________

I. What is your reaction to this statement: "Most male fashion designers are gay."
a. yes, that's true
b. no, that's a stereotype
c. well...that's a stereotype, but also probably true (this one)
d. what? why would you say that?
e. other ______________


-Why do you think that this is true?
I know about / have been exposed to more gay men than straight men in fashion, although I do not think that the people I have been exposed to are an accurate or altogether inclusive representation. I'm sure there are a ton of straight male designers, I just don't know about them yet. I think this is changing though.

and/or

-Why do you think that other people would believe that this is true?

Same reasons.


II. What is your reaction to this statement: "Many major fashion designers of the last hundred years have been gay men."

a. that's definitely true, and I can name some of them: Marc Jacobs, Karl Lagerfeld (although I don't think he's officially 'out', Versace, Valentino (though again, I don't know if he's 'out')__________________
b. that's definitely true, but I can't name any
c. that's probably true, but I'm not sure
d. I have no idea if that's true or false
e. that's probably false, but I'm not sure
f. that's definitely false
g. other ___________________


Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the prominence (past or present) of gay men in fashion design?

and/or

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the perception that gay men are (or have been) prominent in fashion design?


It's weird, now that I've been asked to list gay fashion designers, I'm realizing a lot of them aren't 'openly' gay, even though many of them probably are. I wonder if it has to do with their age (most of the established ones come from a different time) or their countries of origin (usually hyper-masculine).

They're dominating, but are they really dominating if they can't be open about who they are?

(Reply to this)


[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-29 04:53 am UTC (link)
age:40
location: Citizen of the world
occupation: writer

do you identify as:
male
other

do you think of yourself as someone who:

f. other - Knows a bit about fashion. Thinks it can be fun, but can also be very classist and damaging to female self esteem. It's a good thing and a bad thing at the same time.

I. What is your reaction to this statement: "Most male fashion designers are gay."

c. well...that's a stereotype, but also probably true



-Why do you think that this is true?

and/or

-Why do you think that other people would believe that this is true?

Because I think that as a male if you are attracted to femininity as an aesthetic to the point where you can use the female body as a canvass, you probably have to have some sexual distance from females themselves because otherwise you'd be distracted and/or swayed by physicality in a way that would distort your artistic judgment. In other words, to create fashion you need to objectify women in a ways that's different from how straight men objectify women.

II. What is your reaction to this statement: "Many major fashion designers of the last hundred years have been gay men."


g. I don't know much about fashion in the first half of the 20th century so I can't say. I would guess there is a high probability of it, but who knows.


Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the prominence (past or present) of gay men in fashion design?

I think that it can tend to lead to fashions that make women feel that they have to fit a difficult to attain body type, because subconsiously there can be a tendency for gay male fashion designers to ignore the reality of the existence of and desire for feminine curves.

and/or

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the perception that gay men are (or have been) prominent in fashion design?

It gives women an "out" if their body type does not fit the mold fashion is designed for. In other words it allows them to say "Well, it was probably made by someone who likes boys."

That man is Yves St. Laurant. I know that he had a long term male partner, but I'm unsure if he was bi or gay.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]missmimesis
2009-05-29 06:20 am UTC (link)
thanks!

would you by any chance do me a huge favor and link to this on your blog? I feel like you have a huge readership that likes to answer questions, esp. about clothes and sexuality, and I would love to get responses from some of them...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-29 08:02 am UTC (link)
Sure.

Is this for your thesis? Or something else?

Just so I know how to pitch it to people.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]missmimesis
2009-05-29 10:50 am UTC (link)
thanks! yes, it is for my dissertation, though in a sort of peripheral way -- it's very useful to me in trying to work out some ideas, but isn't intended as any kind of actual research and won't be cited/quoted in the thing. (Unless someone says something that turns out to be particularly relevant/awesome, in which case I might take that back, but would ask them first!)

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-29 10:52 am UTC (link)
Cool.

I just want to give people a reason to respond to it.

Because "Help out a cute blond with her dissertation" is a better pitch than "tell us if you are gay and like fashion."

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]msmsgirl
2009-05-29 05:29 pm UTC (link)
age: 29
location: l.a. but mostly ny/east coast
occupation: grad student slaaaaaaaaaavvvvvve

do you identify as: female, bi

do you think of yourself as someone who:
b. doesn't know [MUCH, BUT I DO CARE]/care about fashion, but feels generally positive about it

I. What is your reaction to this statement: "Most male fashion designers are gay."
c. well...that's a stereotype, but also probably true

-Why do you think that this is true?- I guess I would say because it's one of the arts, which have always attracted gay men; because of a complex relationship of identification and desire between gay men and the female fashion body/ women's clothing; because of the cultural influence of elite gay men as arbiters of taste and probably also because of the tendency for any really lucrative global industry to be male-dominated

II. What is your reaction to this statement: "Many major fashion designers of the last hundred years have been gay men."

c. that's probably true, but I'm not sure - I'm trying to name the ones I know: Yves St. Laurent, Karl Lagerfeld, Versace, Armani, Valentino... I'm not actually sure how many of these last ones were actually verifiably gay.

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the prominence (past or present) of gay men in fashion design? - I feel like the art director's speech in "The Devil Wears Prada" really sums up the positive effects of fashion becoming an art form that attracts talented gay men and, for menswear, an aesthetic outlet for gay men who are not even professionally involved in it -- Not to mention the positive effect that fashion has become a communications system for cultivating relations between feminine-identified WOMEN and gay men, to the great enrichment and benefit of women, at least (I can't speak for gay men but I hope they've gotten something out of it)!

and/or

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the perception that gay men are (or have been) prominent in fashion design? This is a bit more complicated - on one hand it's given mainstream culture a 'safe' outlet for appreciating gay talent: it's been wonderful to see the gushing over Jason Wu's genius, for instance. On the other hand, in more bigoted circles "fashion" can be used as a code word in a sketchy way - I told you about my mom deciding that my friend's husband was a closet case because at his own wedding, he remembered that my mom had had on a really hot dress at my wedding the previous summer and retroactively complimented her on it -- so she was sure my friend had married a gay guy (which, for other, far more occult and complicated reasons, I also think might be true, which adds a twist to the story). It's been nice to see the 'metrosexual revolution' of the past decade undo the prohibition on straight guys knowing/caring about clothes.

Uh, I don't know who that man is, because I don't know what anyone looks like. And I am actually finding it hard to say whether I think he's gay, because it's my sense that there was a lot of 'range' for flamboyant clothing and bodily styles for straight men in the bygone milieu that this photo looks like it's from, so he might just be a promiscuous artsy straight due who's about to sleep with both of these women at the same time... or he might be gay and about to dress them both in fabulous clothes -- SAME DIFFERENCE????????????????

Here's my question - is there a tradition of genius BISEXUAL men in fashion like there is in dance??

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]missmimesis
2009-05-30 12:20 am UTC (link)

yes -- I am working on a new intro about The Devil Wears Prada; and that speech is now the subject of what is one of my longest sentences ever -- it perhaps will end up as THE longest, as I sense an oncoming obsession with it...

I don't know about bisexuals! Except Calvin Klein... I mean, I would not be the least bit surprised if many of these people had had sex with women at some point -- but I would not say that made them bisexual, necessarily, not to mention in a tradition of genius bisexual men... Who are the dance ones??

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-30 12:27 am UTC (link)
My ex wife was, for a while, a member of the American Ballet Company and told me that while most of the boys preferred boys, when they were bored they'd also do girls.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]msmsgirl
2009-05-30 01:01 am UTC (link)
ya know, it's funny -- off the top of my head I was thinking of Lincoln Kirstein, Fosse, Michael Bennett (A Chorus Line), Balanchine, and Robbins in a category of "genius bisexual men" -- but then it turns out that Robbins was gay gay gay, Fosse was actually straight, Bennett claimed he was, and Balanchine apparently was, although he and Mikhail Baryshnikov are in my mind at least a "maybe" according to rumor.

And then Nikjinsky was married to a woman, though it seems that more of the big classical danseurs (LOVE the chance to use that word in a sentence!) of his ilk were gay gay gay...

Lincoln Kirstein was really, in fact, openly BIsexual, and I think he kind of set a tone in the American/NY scene in the late 20th c. where it was popular to go both ways.

It is an interestingly parallel category to fashion though! All this iconography of extreme stylized femininity, and then there is this prevailing idea that male dancer=gay, but then if you really look at their bios, some of them really were and some of them really were not and some of them were... somewhere in between.

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[info]missmimesis
2009-05-30 04:38 am UTC (link)
first of all I am quite devastated to hear that Fosse was straight. Is this true?? I do remember researching Michael Bennett a few years ago, though, and he was definitely bisexual (stormily on both sides).

the weird thing about fashion though -- is that it almost always turns out to be the case that the major (male) designers were/are, in fact, gay: Pierre Balmain, Dior, Givenchy, Balenciaga, Cardin, Saint Laurent, Lagerfeld, Galliano, Gaultier, Lacroix, McQueen, Armani, Valentino, Versace, Halston, Marc Jacobs, Dolce and Gabanna, Calvin Klein (I changed my mind on him, he may be bi but leans strongly towards gay!), Bill Blass, Narciso Rodriguez, Tom Ford, Jack and Lazaro from Proenza Schouler, Zac Posen, Nicholas Ghesquiere, Alber Elvaz, Olivier Theskyens...etc, etc

I am convinced of the heterosexuality of Ralph Lauren, Oscar de la Renta, and (apparently?) Roberto Cavalli. (And some mid-century Italians, like Ferragamo and Missoni and Ungaro.)

What is looking really weird to me right now is how very difficult it is to do any research on this -- real research, because hardly anyone has ever written about it; but also, the internet is really, really terrible when it comes to gay fashion history. You basically have to not just GO to Pride but ORGANIZE it to get Wikipedia to mention that you are gay; whereas almost any old heterosexual marriage gets duly noted. And googling is so hopeless -- page after page of dumbass people asking absurd questions on yahoo, plus of homophobic propoganda of various kinds.

Even GLQ encyclopedia is not excellent in the area of fashion -- the articles are all by this dude Shaun Cole, who is THE queer fashion history go-to scholar it seems -- but his work is mostly on what gays wore, not their roles in design/production. (Also -- if you were about to publish a book that would be basically THE source on the history of gay fashion in the 20th century, would you really choose to call it Don We Now Our Gay Apparel?)

The only thing I like on the internet is Fashion Designers With Homosexual Prefrences, which sounds kind of offensive but is actually I believe Icelandic or something. It is a slideshow subtitled: "They love aesthetics, beauty and innovation from the bottom of their heart, but they also love the same sex," which cracks me up.

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[info]little_bounce
2009-05-29 07:24 pm UTC (link)
age: 34
location: Switzerland
occupation: Information Officer

do you identify as:
female
straight (but no objection to interacting sexually with females, they just don't rock my boat)

do you think of yourself as someone who:
c. doesn't know/care much about fashion, but feels generally negative about it

I. What is your reaction to this statement: "Most male fashion designers are gay."
c. well...that's a stereotype, but also probably true


-Why do you think that this is true?
Mainly because gay men don't feel discouraged, the way a large majority of straight men still are to a certain extent, to display their interest in sartorial matters. Over the large gay population, some of them are bound to end up in clothes designing- and designing for women makes more money than for men.

and/or

-Why do you think that other people would believe that this is true?
Because a lot of people, sadly, still think gay men are effeminate freaks who are actually sublimating a desire to be a woman, or at least cross-dress.


II. What is your reaction to this statement: "Many major fashion designers of the last hundred years have been gay men."

g. other: Depends on what you mean by "many". I can think of three whom I'm positive were/are- YSL, Alexander McQueen, and Versace. I can think of a lot more who weren't/aren't. Over the last 100 years, that's not many.


Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the prominence (past or present) of gay men in fashion design?
YSL did a fantastic job dressing women, and had a lasting effect. Alexander McQ has done a very silly job dressing women, and I doubt will have any effect. It depends very much on the clothing, more than on the sexuality, I do believe.

and/or

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the perception that gay men are (or have been) prominent in fashion design?

Absolutely none whatsoever. I don't think that it has ever stopped or encouraged anybody to buy an item of clothing.


Do you know who this man is?
Is he gay?

It was Yves Saint Laurent, and yes he was.

(Reply to this)


[info]sloanepeterson5
2009-05-29 08:19 pm UTC (link)
age: 31
location: Bay Area, CA
occupation: Fashion design student

do you identify as:
female, straight

do you think of yourself as someone who:
d. knows a lot about fashion and loves it, because:
It's something I enjoy, from fashion history to current trends, the whats and whys of the garments and accessories we wear
e. knows a lot about fashion and hates it, because:
It's a tough business to succeed in, full of vanity and superficialities


I. What is your reaction to this statement: "Most male fashion designers are gay."
c. well...that's a stereotype, but also true

-Why do you think that this is true?
Because I have found it to be true in my fashion studies.
and/or

-Why do you think that other people would believe that this is true?
From what is projected in the media and prevailing stereotypes.

II. What is your reaction to this statement: "Many major fashion designers of the last hundred years have been gay men."

g. other: Partially true - Halston, Marc Jacobs, Tom Ford, YSL, but also not: Madame Gres, Calvin Klein, Donna Karan, Coco Chanel.


Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the prominence (past or present) of gay men in fashion design?
Gay men seem to have a better understanding of how to design for a woman's body, as opposed to female designers who actually HAVE a woman's body. Not always, but I see it often.
and/or

Do you have any thoughts on the effects, positive or negative, of the perception that gay men are (or have been) prominent in fashion design?
It just is what it is. However, I think people shouldn't necessarily focus on the sexual orientation of the designer, for it often has little to do with the actual garments - and there are so many designers, gay/straight/whatever, that deserve to be seen and recognized.

Do you know who this man is?
Yves Saint Laurent.
Is he gay?
He was.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-29 10:26 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure I agree with you about Calvin Klein.

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[info]missmimesis
2009-05-29 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Calvin Klein has been married to a bunch of ladies, though is reputed to be bisexual, I think...

(btw, in my phrasing of that caption question I did not mean to imply that YSL was currently alive...I do know that that is, sadly, not the case.)

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-29 10:42 pm UTC (link)
I know that Calvin has been married, I just don't think he's "straight."

I think he's firmly in the "other" category.

Also, I'm surprised that at least one person didn't know that was YSL - I thought he was like Andy Warhol in the sense of being iconically recognizable.

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[info]msmsgirl
2009-05-29 11:22 pm UTC (link)
I know, I'm like retarded at famous people face-recognition!! I never see famous people ever in NY or LA because I wouldn't recognize them if I ran right into them.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-29 11:29 pm UTC (link)
See, I'm a total pop culture whore. I'd recognize anyone - which is frustrating because I live within 20 miles of (and in the only major city near to) Johnny Depp, Belinda Carlisle and Dave Sedaris and the only one of the three I've run into is Sedaris.

Yet, my girlfriend would really, really like me to run into Depp and I have been in love with Belinda for 20 years.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]missmimesis
2009-05-29 11:37 pm UTC (link)
I was slightly surprised you didn't recognize him, though I have to say that I kind of adore your like, naif reading of that photo. (Though you will I hope be glad to know that it is the latter situation. he was about as gay as they come...)

Bart, I am not sure if YSL is *quite* at Warhol-level recognizability, at least currently in the US...it is possible that you are either kind of old, or really French. ;-)

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-30 12:24 am UTC (link)
I'm 40, so I'm kind of old and I was born in France.

For me, it's the eyeglasses that are the giveaway.

Of course it probably helps that my girlfriend used to work for Ralph Lauren and has photos of fashion designers taped up around the house.

I'd be curious if you posted a photo of a certain very white haired male fashion designer if people would get who that was...

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[info]missmimesis
2009-05-30 12:47 am UTC (link)
If someone gave me $1500 on the condition that I spend it on something absolutely useless, I would totally buy this bear

also I've just realized that young Yves Saint Laurent is like, so hot that I can't even deal.

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[info]bart_calendar
2009-05-30 12:51 am UTC (link)
Me too! (About the bear, I mean.)

P.S. I'm testing out my premise that famous fashion designers are by definition iconic on my blog.

Let's see what happens.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]missmimesis
2009-05-30 01:06 am UTC (link)
"Famous fashion designers are by definition iconic."

That is a marvelously tautological statement.

(Christine, I think it might beat "monstrous renaissance birth" or that one about feminizing women that I can't remember now)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]sloanepeterson5
2009-05-30 02:22 am UTC (link)
About him being gay, or about him being a noteworthy designer?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]missmimesis
2009-05-30 12:52 am UTC (link)
Gay men seem to have a better understanding of how to design for a woman's body, as opposed to female designers who actually HAVE a woman's body. Not always, but I see it often.

wow, it is really interesting that you say that...the usual line is exactly the opposite! I am curious if you have any further thoughts on this? I would tend to totally agree with you, but I would love to hear how this plays out in the actual fashion design world...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]sloanepeterson5
2009-05-30 03:00 am UTC (link)
Often I have to do research on designers, past and present, and that sometimes includes going to high-end stores and boutiques and inspecting the actual garments these designers create. Zac Posen is one who just *gets* how something is supposed to look on a female form, in my opinion. Also the duo Proenza Schouler - although you don't see much discussion of their sexualities, they seem very much a couple. I also think Halston did a lot for women's wear in the 70's. So most of the designers I believe to have a better grasp of women's bodies and how to best accentuate them are gay men. And a couple of the most talented students I am currently working alongside are also gay men. I can't offer an explanation for it, but it's what I've observed!

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